Searching for Wisdom
Thoughts from J.W. Bertolotti, host of the Perennial Wisdom podcast
Today I’m delighted to share a brief interview with
, founder of the Perennial Leader Project and host of multiple podcasts on wisdom and the good life, including the Perennial Wisdom podcast and Dying Every Day podcast. As a seeker of wisdom he has spoken with hundreds of thinkers, writers, academics, leaders, and other people who try to understand what makes a good life. Below he responds to a few of my questions.Wisdom is notoriously difficult to define, and yet we keep trying. Do you think it’s important to have an explicit definition of wisdom, and if so, how close can we come to something everyone will agree on?
I love the question. Although I’ve asked many people, “How do you define (or think about) wisdom in daily life?” I don’t think having a concise or solidified definition is important. However, we need clarity about wisdom (as much as possible). Wisdom is not our default setting; it’s something (or a philosophy of life) that each of us must search for and attempt to embody.
Regarding the agreement question, I believe philosophical and spiritual traditions agree on many aspects of wisdom (which is something I attempt to focus on). For example, the practice of living in the “present” is something you find across wisdom traditions. You also find living an ethical (or virtuous) life in various traditions. Although they’re not identical in every tradition, there are tremendous similarities (and I’m not aware of any wisdom tradition, thankfully, that advises living an “unethical” life).
These are just two of a rather long list of principles and practices (related to wisdom) that I believe wisdom traditions agree on.
There seems to be a commonly accepted division between practical wisdom (which the Greeks called phronesis) and theoretical wisdom (which they called sophia). Do you see this as a useful distinction to make? What value is there in studying and practicing both practical and theoretical wisdom?
I like the distinction. It’s helpful to separate things (when we can) while recognizing that they work in harmony with one another. An image that has always stuck with me is theory and practice as two wings of a bird. We need both (theory and practice) if we hope to learn how to live.
To the question, “Which is more important, theory or practice?” I recall reading the Stoic teacher Musonius Rufus say something like, “Imagine you were going on a long voyage, and one Captain had sailed many times and another who had sailed only a few. But the one with little experience (phronesis) could speak eloquently about the theory of navigation…”
Who would you hire to Captain the ship? Most of us would wisely choose the one with more experience. (Not sure? Consider changing the example to piloting a plane.) The point is not that practice (phronesis) is more important than theory (sophia) but that embodying (wisdom or anything else) is much more difficult than learning about it. The Captain (or pilot) with more experience has shown a level of understanding and the ability to put it into practice.
One notable feature of all philosophies, religions, and self-help movements is that they all help us deal with the difficulties of life: pain, illness, hardship, grief, and death. What advice do you find most valuable in helping people deal with suffering?
The question of suffering is a difficult one, especially broadly speaking. For example, when it comes to grief-related suffering (like the loss of a loved one), I’m not a fan of advice. When my older brother passed last year, I found this quote by the novelist Marcel Proust helpful, “We are healed of a suffering only by experiencing it to the full.” But what does it mean to experience “suffering” to the full? We are all incredibly unique, and so is each situation.
If you are suffering, my heart goes out to you. Life is hard. But thankfully, we don’t go through it alone. We can learn from those who came before us and lean on those beside us.
Many of us think wisdom is something that comes with age, that older people tend to be wiser than younger people. Based on your research and conversations, do you find this to be true? Is there anything we can do to become wiser earlier in life? Is there any way we can teach wisdom to others, or does it simply have to be acquired through personal experience?
I spent much of my adult life in the military (I retired about five years ago). One of my assignments was as a training instructor for new recruits. I was fortunate to lead (and observe) the training of thousands of young people. Many of these young recruits seemed to have an abundance of practical wisdom.
These observations still pique my curiosity. “How do we make sense of people who have wisdom beyond their years and those who appear to lack wisdom later in life?” It’s interesting to consider the exceptions to the rule (on both ends of the spectrum).
It reminds me of the Greek philosopher Aristotle, who stressed the notion of habits. He believed that the “good life” (or wisdom in action) is essentially the habit of making the right choices. Some young people, probably for various reasons, have developed good habits (aligned with wisdom) early in life. You also have (for various reasons) people later in life who have deeply ingrained “bad” habits (or ways of thinking and behaving that are in conflict with wisdom).
If wisdom (or the good life) connects with cultivating good habits, as Aristotle suggests. Then, I think it’s safe to say we can all attain wisdom (regardless of age). There is a tendency to think about wisdom as all or nothing. But that’s a mistake. We can all become wiser by beginning to search for wisdom. As Seneca reminded his friend Lucilius, “No one ever became wise merely by chance.”
Thank you so much for sharing your insights on wisdom with us! Is there anything else you’d like to share with readers? Perhaps closing thoughts or future directions for your projects?
It's my pleasure; I appreciate the opportunity! My closing thoughts are more of an invitation: If anyone is interested in joining a book club, I’ve facilitated “Reading & the Good Life” for the past few years. It’s a weekly meetup (Fridays at Noon EST) designed to provide space for connection and conversations. We read one book per month and meet weekly to chat about it!
J.W. Bertolotti is the Founder of the Perennial Leader Project, an organization dedicated to providing tools for the art of living. He is editor at Perennial Meditations (on Substack) and host of the Perennial Wisdom podcast and Dying Every Day (Stoicism in a Year) podcast.
Photo credit: Venti Views on Unsplash